When it comes to understanding gender identity, skateboarding still has a long way to go. The world does too, of course, but for a supposedly progressive subculture, skateboarding lacks a lot of understanding when it comes to gender. But we don’t think it’s for lack of caring among cis skaters, just lack of education. To help combat that, we asked M Dabbadie, the founder of genderqueer skate zine Xem Skaters, to essentially give us Gender Identity 101 for Skaters. As they point out, unlearning the gender binary and learning to be inclusive and welcoming to people of all genders is an ongoing process, but this guide will give you a good head start. At the bottom, you’ll find a link to master files for all three issues of Xem Skaters, as well as instructions on how to print them.
Interview by Tobias Coughlin-Bogue
For the uninitiated, what is the gender binary?
The binary system is how society chooses to sort and to oppose two genders. It’s basically a western social construct that says that there are only two genders: male and female. It’s a false concept, because some people are born intersex, there are people that are assigned a gender at birth but do not identify with that gender and masculinity and feminity doesn’t equate to male and female. The gender spectrum is much wider than just two categories and the binary systems dismisses all of that.
What does cisgender mean?
A cisgender person is a person that identifies with the gender that they’ve been assigned at birth.
Does genderqueer cover everyone who doesn’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth?
No it doesn’t necessarily, it’s always better to let people telling you how they identify rather than using umbrella terms because these aren’t usually inclusive.
I think sometimes people have a difficult time understanding the different between trans and genderqueer. Can you explain that?
It’s up to every individual to choose the gender label(s) they identify with. The best option is to ask people their pronouns and maybe they will tell you more about how they identify.
Something I wanted to touch on is that I’ve heard from you and other non-binary or trans people that they get a lot of looks at the skatepark. Like, people kind of questioning with their eyes, maybe wondering how you identify. For someone who is trying not to be a dick, how should they approach that?
Making a habit of asking, “Hey, what’s up? What’s your name?” and “What are your pronouns?”
It’s okay to just ask someone what their pronouns are?
Yeah, it’s definitely okay! It’s way better than just assuming. If you want to take the first step, you can say, “Hey, my name is Tobias, my pronouns are he/him. What about you?”
I guess that makes the good point that cis people also have specific pronouns, so it’s fine to ask somebody who appears to be cis what their pronouns are.
Yes, it’s always fine to ask people’s pronouns. One note though, pronouns are not “preferred” but simply correct or incorrect for someone’s identity. And sometimes in “pronoun rounds” cis people are like, “Yeah, you can call me whatever” — that doesn’t really work. You know, if you’re cool with the gender you were assigned at birth and the pronouns that go with, just go by those pronouns. Don’t say, “Whatever works,” because that kind of dismisses the fact that some people want their pronouns respected.
Well yeah, it takes for granted that people are going to see you and know what your pronouns are, which is what I would understand as cis privilege. You’re like, “Oh it doesn’t matter because if someone sees me they’re going to know I go by he/him.”
Yes, and that’s kind of dismissive. It can be violent for a trans person that is struggling with having their pronouns respected.
Can you talk a little bit about the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. And why trans/genderqueer people are grouped in with LGB people?
Well, trans and genderqueer is part of the LGBTQIA+ spectrum, but gender and sexuality are two different concepts. I think that they’re not tied together. For me for example, as a non-binary person, sexual orientation is irrelevant because I don’t have a gender. Like, everyone that goes out with me is gay! [laughs] But that’s the thing, if a cis-person likes me, I’ll tell them, “You’re gay.” whatever gender they thought I identified with. Gender and sexuality are very different concepts. And it’s way less okay to ask someone for their sexual orientation. In my opinion, that’s way more intimate and that’s something that people will tell you on their own if they chose to.
You don’t need to know that to interact with somebody in public.
No, definitely not. And again, I think it’s ok to ask someone about their pronouns and they’ll open up more if they want to. But also, once you start understanding that the gender spectrum is way bigger than two genders it’s like, everyone is gay.
Can you explain a little bit about — I think sometimes people are confused about the notion of violence and microaggressions — how it’s a problem when you misgender someone at the skatepark. Why do we consider that violence?
That’s really up to every individual, again. Some trans people go through dysphoria, some don’t. And, I mean, for me as a non-binary person, microaggression and gender violence is there all the time. Like, in society, everything is sorted into binary gender, most people see everything within the binary spectrum, so most things are already a microaggression for me on a regular basis. Misgendering someone, well, if you don’t know someone at first and they misgender you it’s violence, but it’s not as violent as when you’ve taken the step to tell your pronouns to someone and that person deliberately ignores that. That’s really violent.
If someone does it on accident, it’s still painful, but it’s not like, “Fuck that person forever,” it’s just that they can do better?
It’s always better to ask pronouns first. That also normalizes the fact that there are different pronouns than he and she. When people use the wrong pronouns for me, I often just tell them, “No, I use they/them pronouns.” But some trans people don’t have the energy to do that, so it’s better for cis people to just make it a habit to ask.
Also when you get someone’s pronouns wrong, avoid making a huge apology, just correct yourself, like for example “sorry they” and keep going.
You mentioned not always having the energy to correct people who use the wrong pronouns, is there an assumption on the part of cis people that queer and trans people should to do the work of explaining gender identity to cis people? If so, what needs to change to fix this?
Yes. Last year, something highly transphobic happened to a friend at a skate event, it was very badly handled by the organizers and I stepped in to support my friend and to educate both the organizers and the security guard on how they should react in the moment. My suggestions were not followed through and the security guard was very violent in their wording. Later, I was asked to come to a meeting to help out with inclusivity for the future of the event. I asked to be paid at least a minimum hourly wage if I were to join. It was declined so I didn’t go. I have been trying to help skate events organizers to make their events safe and inclusive for a while without compensation until I realized I was doing a lot of free emotional labor and well, work. I want people to stop taking for granted that because I am trans, I’ll want to educate people for free.
And to answer your last question, well, it’s easy, if you want to try to make your events safe and inclusive for LGBTQIA+ folks, invite these folks to take part of the organisation, listen to their advice, follow through and pay them for their work!
I wanted to ask — because you did mention that this is a problem in all of society, and I get this a lot when I write about something that’s toxic in skateboarding, where people are coming back and saying, “Well, it’s a problem everywhere, why are you singling out skateboarders?” — why does skateboarding in particular have such an issue with this?
Skateboarding is just a reflection of society, yes, but as skateboarders and as norm-breakers — a lot of skateboarders are like, “Skateboarding is for everyone, everyone is welcome, blah, blah, blah,” but if you say that you have to acknowledge that there are people other than you who don’t conform to the gender binary, and then make an effort to acknowledge them and make space for them. To create a safer space is to make space for people.
Absolutely. Skateboarding to me was always about belonging somewhere. Having a place outside of “normal” society. But something I’ve recently realized is that I was able to have that community because I was a white man. Whereas a lot of people who are also outside of normal society and could benefit from skateboarding… to me the worst problem we have is that people who are already being rejected by society are not being welcomed by skateboarders, when we have always prided ourselves on being the rejects.
Yeah often womxn, trans & queer people don’t feel the most welcome, but at the same time you see them creating their own platforms and their own crews, wich are way better and more creative in my opinion.
Like you did with XEM Skaters?
Like XEM Skaters or Neighbour Skateboarding or all the groups that create queer and womxn only sessions and/or medias. They are created because the general skatepark vibe when you show up is just intimidating and the medias don’t represent them well. It’s very male-dominated and it can be violent in the way people talk about things and talk about other people. It can become really homophobic and transphobic and even racist. It’s hard to navigate if you are a queer person or a person of color. Or both.
Given that skateboarding is so male-dominated, how can men (and cis people in general) make things better for trans and genderqueer people?
Unfortunately it might resonate more from a cis guy to call other cis guys out then if it’s coming from a trans person. Plus a trans person might be highly affected by the comments and questions that comes next. That group will be more likely to listen to you as a cis-dude because you have somewhat of a free pass to enter the conversation and say, “That’s not cool.” And you won’t get as affected by the comments that come next.
I think they’ve actually done research that shows that people listen more closely to people from their own identity group, at least when it comes to racism and sexism. Given that the same is probably true for cis people checking other cis people, how would you define allyship specifically in relation to gender?
It’s just standing up every time you hear a transphobic (or sexist, or homophobic or racist) comment to say, “No, that’s not ok.” Making it uncool to say that kind of bullshit. Also, if you’re going skating with one of your trans pals, and someone misgenders them, you could be the one who says, “Hey, no, that’s not their pronouns.” It’s very simple. If you have trans friends, you could have a conversation with them and ask them, “How do you want me to support you on a regular basis?” because that’s a very individual thing. What I’ve personally done is I’ve created a system where I tell my cis friends that if someone misgenders me, they are encouraged to correct people so I don’t have to do it myself. Also, when I changed my name, I asked people to spread the word for me and it helped a lot. That kind of thing, basically.
In regards to a couple of the nitty gritty details, can you break down how to use they/them pronouns correctly? Because I hear a lot of people saying they find it complicated.
It’s not so confusing. Just pretend that no one is standard and no one has a gender around you for a while. And everyone uses they/them pronouns, even though that’s not true. It would be nice to normalize it so that, when you don’t know someone’s gender, even if you think it looks very obvious, just use they/them. Even when I see, like, an old grandma and it appears quite obvious, I’ll use they/them to talk about them anyway. It’s a big step for people to stop gendering everyone and everything around them. And if you do that, when you are getting to know a trans person that uses “they/them”, it will be easier to use their pronouns properly.
The other thing I was curious about was pronouns like, he/they or she/they. How does that work? Do you alternate between the gendered pronouns and the non-gendered pronouns?
Yeah, it could be that you alternate in conversations. But, once again, it’s a very individual thing. It’s always about communicating with people about their pronouns. Ask, “How do you want me to use them?”. And another thing I wanted to add was that we are always learning when it comes to identities. I am still learning about gender! It’s okay to not know and it’s okay to ask people. It’s up to every individual to explain or not. If a trans person doesn’t want to explain or talk about it, you have to respect that, but if you are putting yourself in a learning position, people will be more likely to open up to you more. Instead of being like, “I know about it all, I am a good ally already, I have a feminist pin on my jacket.” [laughs] That kind of thing.
So, in the US at least, I have heard from a lot of skaters who say that they don’t want to even engage with these issues because they are scared people are going to be offended and jump down their throats if they make a mistake. What would you tell those people?
If you don’t want to make an effort, then stay away from trans people and don’t make any comments about trans people. It’s very simple.
I guess, more specifically, these people are really worried about getting yelled at or having comments on their social media saying they’re trash for misgendering someone on accident. And to be clear, my experience has been that it’s not like that. If you have good intentions and you try, even when you make a mistake and misgender someone, they might correct you, but I’ve never had anyone yell at me or scream at me.
Yeah and it makes me roll my eyes to hear that. They’re scared to be yelled at, well I’m scared for my safety every day when I go out in the street. I’m scared when I go to the doctor, I’m scared when I cross the border, I’m scared on an everyday basis. If they’re scared for five minutes that someone is going to yell at them, they’re fine. And it’s very unlikely that people are going to start yelling at them, I’d just be annoyed and probably avoid them if they don’t try to learn.
Okay, last question: What are your feelings on the word ‘dude’?
I don’t like anything that’s gendered! [laughs] But I know that in the States people use ‘dude’ all the time whatever a person’s gender is. I have friends that call me dude and these friends are from the States and it’s okay with me. If it gets annoying I’ll tell them, but again, that’s an individual thing.
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Featured image from Matilda Szadaj.
Xem Skaters is a genderqueer skate zine that aims to give space to all genders in a binary environment by giving visibility to non-binary/queer/trans skaters, to introduce gender notions and knowledge in the skateboard community and ultimately open paths for individual identity building within skateboarding.
It featured anything that is written/produced/created/photographed by genderqueer and genderqueer-friendly people that skate or have something to say about skateboarding and gender.
Xem Skaters was founded by M Dabbadie in 2016.
Xem Skaters lives! Click here for original masters of all three issues of Xem Skaters, as well as printing instructions, and help spread knowledge and tolerance in your own community. Below is Xem Skaters’ gender glossary page, which is borrowed from the super-informative Genderqueeries blog.
