I met Leo right after I first came out as queer, when he posted the big, scary coming-out article I’d written for our local alt weekly on his Instagram, adding that he was also a queer skater. I’d seen him skate a bit—he’s got a very eye-catching style—but had no idea we were kindred spirits until my piece came out. It was super refreshing to realize that there were other queer “skater’s skaters” out there, rocking the same hoodie-and-jeans uniform as everyone else, because I’d always felt restricted in coming out by my own adherence to masculine core skate culture.
Leo helped me see that you really can have it both ways. Unlike me, has masculinity under his thumb. He plays with our conception of it, using it to shine a light on the hypocrisies and hilarities of skate culture, while also finding the parts of it that are still valuable. And he is, like our photo editor Sam McGuire, a queer person who sits behind the lens a lot, which gives him a unique perspective on how skateboarding sees itself.
Besides his videos, which present the real, raw street skating we love, with none of the tough guy bullshit we don’t, he makes zines, clothes, and art of all types. I was lucky enough to chat with him recently about what it’s like being a queer creator in skateboarding, which includes his very astute assessment of skateboarding’s complicated relationship with queerness, and how that’s changing in 2019. Hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it all down!
Interview by Tobias Coughlin-Bogue
Photos Courtesy of Cens.us
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So you’re one of the more prolific people I know in skateboarding, in that you’re always filming, making zines, designing clothing, and generally doing as much creative shit as you can. But you’re also one of the only people I know who is on that side of things that is queer. How does that affect your projects?
Well, as a filmer, it’s allowed me to do things I wouldn’t have done if I was straight. As broad as that sounds, I feel like I wouldn’t be putting out the work I put out if I wasn’t queer, as far as the type of films and videos. I would probably be putting out more conventional ideas, just because a lot of the films and zines I make are based around my queer identity. The way I want to portray it to the world, and also allow others to express their queer identity.
Did you have any projects you made before you were out to the world of skateboarding? That one you made in Florida and released here in Seattle?
Um, yeah. I definitely put out a video [before I was out] called “Salon des Refusés,” which means “exhibition of the rejects” in French. It’s a Napoleonic era art show that happened, and it was based around the idea of a bunch of artists who didn’t get into whatever the grand exhibition they had every year was. Napoleon made them their own exhibition and it was called the exhibition of rejects. That was kind of a poke at my queer identity without going too far into it. Because it covered skateboarders and the rejects among skateboarders. Not that a skateboarder isn’t a reject, but…
Skateboarding is kind of big enough that it has its own rejects now? And being queer was one of those things that would get you kicked out of the cool kids club?
Yeah. So that project was before, but the Florida video, the one you mentioned, “Machismo,” that was really dipping my feet in there.
Yeah, now that I remember the name, calling it Machismo is such an obvious overture. Like, what does it mean to be a man, what are we doing on our skateboards if not performing masculinity? That’s something I’ve always really enjoyed about your videos and your art, is that it looks into the masculine side of skateboarding in a critical way. But also in a celebratory way!
[Laughing] I am a little critical.
Have there been any consequences for you from being out? Like people who started to film with you then fell off when they found out? I know you have a pretty tight-knit crew at this point.
I feel like I thought I was going to have a lot more negative consequences associated with coming out, but I will say—and this is shitty—but I established myself amongst my group of friends and with people around the country in skating before I came out, which allowed them to have this preface of, We already know he’s cool. It just sucks, it’s a shitty thing to recognize, but I will say that, if I did come out earlier, I don’t think people would have taken it as well regardless of how they knew me. Just because there’s been a lot of change in people’s mindsets since. I think that I personally didn’t suffer, and I think now it’s not something that people should worry about at all, but I think it potentially could have affected me if I had come out earlier. I’ve thought about it, and I think my life would be a little different. I’ve talked to friends about that, and y’know, when we were 16, had they found out I was queer, they would have all taken it a lot differently. Who knows if I would have met the people and made the connections to be where I’m at?
Yeah, it’s strange, I had the same experience of knowing this thing about myself from very early on—that I liked both men and women—and then knowing also that I didn’t have the footing in skateboarding to be open about that. Until at some point I realized I did. I was very well situated in the Seattle skate scene, I had people like Tony at 35th North who were super supportive. And then it was like, Okay, why the fuck not? But I feel like I was subconsciously building that, so it’s interesting to hear you say you kind of did the same thing.
Yeah, I feel like, regardless of that, I don’t think I’ve really experienced anything negative, or backlash from videos and stuff. Just because a lot of it, it’s not in your face, but it’s also not not there. I think with the skate community, especially the greater skate community, they have this tiny bit of tolerance that you have to inch at, which is so unfortunate to say. But it’s almost strategic in my eyes.
Getting people used to these ideas?
Yes. And I feel like every project I do gets gayer and gayer, which I’m stoked about.
It’s amazing! I mean, “Skaters in Drag” was one of the most blatantly gay things you’ve ever done. And the coolest.
That was the one we were really worried about. That’s the one where we were scared what the community was going to think [laughing].
Or how they would treat Brendan, who as far as I know identifies as straight, after getting fully done up in drag for your zine. But I feel like you being more comfortable with your own identity and your own idea of how you want to express skateboarding made him more comfortable with being out there.
I hope so. I really do. We had a long chat after the “Skaters in Drag” thing, and that was his main worry was what other skaters would think of him from then on. I was pretty much like, If they have any amount of respect for you now, and they lose it after this, they’re not worth respecting.
It’s cool that making more room for queer people in skateboarding has made more room for even people who aren’t queer to be more weird than maybe they would have been otherwise, and not play into this masculine ideal of what a skateboarder is. Speaking of masculine ideals, what’s up with Cens.us, how does your brand tie into all of this?
Cens.us was just kind of a small idea in the back of my head that lingered for many years. It almost came to life and kept getting put back in it’s box. But I’m trying to really do it. My ideas for it are really broad. I don’t want it to be a skateboarding brand, I don’t want it to be a clothing brand, I want it to be more of a community or a workspace. I don’t want it to all be about me. If anything I try not to associate my name or face with it too much. I want it to be more something I can collectively do with like-minded folks, and put out content, material, videos, anything, where there’s a higher purpose. I want something that’s tangible but also meaningful and substantial. If it’s a skate video and the soundtrack makes someone feel some type of way, that’s enough for me. If it’s a zine and the color scheme or the layout or whatever does that—I want it to mentally affect people. Not even in a good or bad way, but in a way that stirs it up. I dunno, I get a little in my head in terms of what I want to put out as far as graphics or t-shirts or garments, so it relates to—I try to put clothing out alongside a project so the clothing relates to the message of that project.
I think I get the idea; it’s more cohesive than just, Here’s a cool looking shirt. And you’re also playing with a lot of ideas on your shirts. The first one I saw was the “Crybaby” tee, which is rad because you were selling it at a core skate shop, and a bunch of dudes who are core skate dudes are going to be psyched, because they’re psyched on you, and they’re going to ride around the city proudly displaying the word “crybaby” on their chest. Which is a very different idea of masculinity than I think we had even two years ago. It’s interesting how you can use content and marketing and hype around what you’re doing to make that happen.
I just need a little more drive!
What’s next? I know you just dropped a video. Are you working on any other projects?
I am. My partner and I, Brandin, are just starting to work on an art book—I’m just going to call it a book, because art is a very broad term—but it’s going to be a multimedia book and potentially a video project along with it that celebrates our queerness and our color. We want to get everything about us separately and together, and kind of put it into a book. Do photography, video, artwork, writing. And we also want to have a few artists to collaborate with and include their work there. So we’re just starting that right now, but as far as skateboarding goes—this is going to be my second project outside of skateboarding—as far as skateboarding goes, I’m just going to be doing short Cens.us edits that will be filmed around the city and smaller trips. Another full-length probably won’t be in the works for the next year.
No one has the attention span for it, perhaps.
Yeah that’s the thing, I’m trying to make five-minute edits that are focused on certain areas. Just quicker and shorter, because it’s hard to watch anything longer than 15 minutes.
It’s a lot of time!
I tried to watch the fuckin’ Supreme video again recently. It drove me nuts with the slow rollups. I was like, I really just want to see them skate!
That’s interesting that you mention the Supreme video, because I wanted to ask you what’s manly in skateboarding to you. I feel like Bill Strobeck is really trying to capture this young masculine ideal of the skateboarder. As, like, a sex symbol riding around New York not giving a fuck. All those close-in shots.
I can agree with the sex symbol as a direction he goes in. As far as masculinity within skateboarding, I feel like it’s still very, like, industry focused? And…skatepark culture.
Which is like bros drinking and dapping each other up?
Yeah bros, but luckily there is a whole new wave of—this is potentially controversial—but you know all the straight skaters who are, kind of, what I would call “queer-baiting?”
[Laughing] Oh I know exactly what you mean!
Y’know they paint their nails, they bleach their hair. Which I don’t think should put you into this “You must be queer to do that” ideology.
Yeah, there’s no such thing as “looking gay,” really. But there also somewhat is?
Not even just that, but like dudes that sexualize with their friends, but also don’t identify as queer, and—I don’t even want to say appropriate because that’s a little strong—but maybe there’s a mild word for appropriating queer culture.
They like to dress flamboyantly, I think. That’s the word.
Yeah. And in a way I think they kind of help. They help balance the true queer community of skateboarding with the truly non-queer and heteronormative side.
They provide a buffer between them?
Literally it’s like a thread between the two that allows them to communicate.
It’s interesting, when you and I are at a skate spot I often feel like we’re the least queer-presenting people there. I’m always just skating in a t-shirt and Dickies, and I think you are too. But you do see the kids with dangly earrings and multiple colors in their hair.
Yeah, there’s a whole wave of those kids, and I wouldn’t say they’re bad.
No, they’re great! Earlier when we were talking about Brendan being down to do the “Skaters in Drag” thing, he’s definitely who I think of when I think about that. But I think he’s also just such an open-minded kid about things. And such a huge ally. Those kids are great in that regard, and they are making skateboarding more weird, which I think it needs to be. The more weird it gets, the more accepting it will be of different identities.
Yeah, as long as they don’t keep the weirdness within the cool guy club, which is still a thing. Like, being weird is only okay if you’re in the cool guy club. But that’s a whole ‘nother fuckin’ rabbit hole.
We’ll leave that can of worms unopened! Anybody you wanted to shout out?
Um, major shout out to the Seattle skate community for accepting me. My group of friends. Shout out to Tony at 35th North for giving me the opportunity to showcase my work in settings I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to without him. Tony’s a big thank you because of that.
And a big supporter of queer skating.
Just showing a lot of the skate community here that has no idea who I am or what I do my work in a neutral setting [was great]. And Unity! Jeff’s the man, Jeff’s doing a lot. I’m actually about to go out to Oakland for a week long trip with Unity, and CCS is sponsoring it.
That’s rad. I’m just realizing I forgot to ask you all the basic questions and I’m about to miss this flight. So, how long have you lived in Seattle?
I got here in June 2016 after a few-month-long road trip. I decided to stay a month later, so summer 2016 I guess.
You grew up and started skating in Florida?
Yeah, Naples, Florida. And I spent a couple years in Tallahassee.
It sounds like you’ve always known you were gay, but Florida is where you first came out to other skateboarders?
Yup. I came out to my close friends and family. I didn’t really publicly come out until—I never wanted to publicly come out because I thought it was corny—but I did when you wrote that article for The Stranger. And that’s how I met you!
Dude, yeah, I always thought it was corny too, but the more I kept thinking about it the more I was like, If I say it and people in Seattle think I’m cool for whatever reason, they’ll think it’s cool too. It was so nice to see you post the cover photo on Instagram that week and be like, You know what? Me too.
Major shout out Tobias!
